Talk:All-Burning Flame Creation
Just figured I'd say a way to make flames that don't need oxygen work. as using chakra for fuel does absolutely nothing to do that. *All fire release uses chakra as fuel, it's what fire release is. Fire requires 3 things normally, oxygen, heat, and fuel. Normal fire release uses chakra to create the heat and fuel. You could use use it for the catalyst as well, which is what oxygen is. It would require more chakra that way, but I'm pretty sure it's how Amaterasu would have to work. The fun thing is since you are using chakra as a replacement for the oxygen, you could increase the "levels" of oxygen to near purity in the technique. This allows for much hotter burning flames. As for water, it has a two fold effect on fire. It doesn't just smother oxygen. It's extremely high specific heat makes it an excellent repository of heat. It doesn't just smother the flames, depriving of oxygen. It also absorbs all of the heat out of the fire, depriving it of heat as well. Without any one of the three things needed for fire, well things just don't burn. its not worthless, it is only worth less (talk) 13:04, August 30, 2014 (UTC) :Incorrect. Flames created by Fire Release do not target chakra, they target oxygen just like normal fire, because they are flames born from chakra with the behavior of fire. That's what they are. Fire's target and fuel are the same thing: oxygen. Fire Release follows the same idea. But these blue flames have a different target and fuel: chakra. Chakra might be used to create a Fire Release jutsu, but when it is cast, it operates the same way as a normal flame. These flames, when cast, still desire to devour more chakra, that is their behavior. That is how these flames are different and how they work. :Furthermore, you are too narrowly-focused on basic chemistry ideas and not thinking about this in terms of thermodynamics and physics. There is a transfer of heat that causes the water to reach its boiling point when subjected to the heat of a flame. But how does this transfer even happen? Just being around water isn't enough for the heat of fire to be absorbed. You wouldn't even need to hit fire with water then, the water would just have to be in the general vicinity as fire to make it go out, right? Heat radiates off of the source, after all. I mean, I suppose it could happen eventually, but we're talking quite a long time. Generally, it is impossible. It's when fire latches onto the oxygen that it desires to consume that a transfer of heat occurs and the eventual deprivation of heat occurs, which means... it all ties back to fire's dependency on oxygen, which is why, yet again, water can not work upon it in the conventional sense. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 03:03, September 1, 2014 (UTC) ::Uhh, oxygen isn't exactly the "fuel" for a fire. It's a component of the combustion reaction in which the actual fuel (the flammable material) needs to release the energy. A fire will go out in the presence of oxygen if the fuel expires, you know. In the context of Naruto, it's not unreasonable to presume that chakra is the flammable substance. --[[User:LaviBookman|'れび']] (talk to Lavi!) 03:21, September 1, 2014 (UTC) :::By fuel, I am referring to what is needed for the fire to burn, not the actual definition of it. Why you gotta step up on mah game, Lavi? :< --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 03:26, September 1, 2014 (UTC) ::Oxygen is not a fuel. It's a catalyst. Chakra is used in the creation of fire. It is the fuel of the fire. The difference would be is that yours seeks additional chakra for the fuel. Oxygen burning is only a bi-product of the normal reaction at best. ::As for the water only depriving of oxygen, you are discounting the fact that there exists a flashpoint for things. Water can and will lower the temperature of the thing that is burning as well, even if this is just heating the air. If i lower the temperature of whatever is burning to a lower temperature than its flashpoint, it can't burn. :: Trying to take the chakra out of water would be extremely difficult as you would have to raise the temperature enough to ignite it. So water would still be an entirely viable defense against this fire. As it should, since it is the superior element in this regard. Even Amaterasu doesn't randomly burn through water, though water is incapable of putting it out. *it would just spread around everywhere which could arguably be worse* ::In addition, fire isn't energy, it's a plasma. Meaning there is always something to act upon. So cooling down fire itself is more than possible. All you would have to do is cool down the plasma itself. So contact heat transfer is more than possible in this case. ::Basically you're making water/everything-proof fire that works because you say so. otherwise known as Amaterasu with chakra absorption. ::Sorry for the ramblyness, my longer thoughts tend to jumble. (was only trying to help in the first place and offer a simple suggestion) All I did was say a way you could write your thing to mean exactly what you wanted it to. You wanted to make fire that could burn without oxygen. So you had to use chakra for that part of the fire as well. It would cost more chakra than normal fire of the same magnitude, but it is reasonable. There is no need to get snippy with me. ::its not worthless, it is only worth less (talk) 04:08, September 1, 2014 (UTC) Are you hearing yourself? You are saying Fire Release ninjutsu operates by lighting chakra itself on fire, which is moronic. There isn't any fire, Dal. At all. Fire Release is chakra being kneaded to behave like fire itself, which is why it operates just like normal fire when released from the user. That's why it can be absorbed, regardless of its heat. That's why it doesn't burn up the user's body when kneaded in the stomach. You can't say chakra is the fuel to itself, that doesn't make a lick of sense. Furthermore, your entire argument is predicated upon that faulty logic, so I'll get as snippy as I want to when I'm offered help that is incorrect. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 04:15, September 1, 2014 (UTC) Are you hearing yourself? You are saying Fire Release ninjutsu runs on nothing, which is moronic. Considering that chakra is a magical substance that can turn into anything, yet always seems to follow the properties of whatever it turns into, i view it as more of a napalm like substance in this regard. Think of it this way, if i don't use chakra on your fire, guess what. it dies out instantly. You have to use something to sustain it, and since apparently it can't run on your own chakra, if your opponent isn't immediately using something on it, it can't function. Now that may seem like a straw man, but it's not. You use the chakra to create fire, the fire is still chakra based however, as all the heat is... being created from chakra. Chakra has to exist within the flames itself. Otherwise, it would instantly die out. If you were merely creating flame like chakra on the other hand, it would stay around indefinitely, like you know, every other element. It wouldn't dissipate. there would just be eternal fire everywhere. However, cause the stuff was made from chakra, and is not as stable as the real thing, guess what, it can more easily be broken back up into it's component parts. Since everything seems to be made from, and contain yin and yang energy anyways. Things merely being chakra that acts like something real simply doesn't make sense once you consider the non-physical elements of fire and lightning. They would have to stay around if it was like that. It makes more sense that they convert, and can be converted back due to the fact that they wouldn't be as resilient as the real thing. So basically what i'm saying is that you convert chakra to fire in fire release, which would mean chakra is the fuel. You aren't making a fire like substance made out of chakra. Which would mean that there is no fuel whatsoever. Which since it is fire like, would mean it's either not fire like, or it would die out instantly. You are instead making a controlled burn of chakra, either by conversion or actual burning. It solves the logic problem of why the fire goes away after the technique while the physical elements do not. So yeah, you're being a bit hypocritical here with your not knowing how fire actually works. *Oxygen has never been the fuel of a fire, it is the catalyst/oxidizing agent* So stop being snippy with me. its not worthless, it is only worth less (talk) 04:34, September 1, 2014 (UTC) :So let me get this straight. Fire is on fire, that's how it works? Yo dawg, we know you like fire, so we lit your fire on fire. Hahahah... No. No, you see, again, you are still using the faulty argument that Fire Release is lighting chakra on fire... which is, again, moronic. Chakra is not a substance. It's not a magical golden liquid that runs through its own set of veins and can be released and lit on fire and blah blah blah... No. It's composed of physical... say it with me, energy. And spiritual, say it with me... energy. Energy. Two types of energy, each with specific... say it with me... behaviors, combined to form a new form of energy. Energy can be transferred in waves. There are different wavelengths, different frequencies, and so on, all of which correspond to a certain behavior. By kneading chakra on specific wavelengths and frequencies, it can take on different behaviors, different "elements", which composes the spectrum of elemental chakra natures. And like all energy, it isn't eternally stuck in a single form. It constantly changes hands. So, no, it would not "burn eternally", because the chakra that is behaving as fire would eventually transfer into another form of energy. So, put down the high school science textbook, and actually use your brain before trying (and failing) to lecture me. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 04:48, September 1, 2014 (UTC) ::Knock it off, Sei. You're not winning any points with that attitude. This is supposed to be feedback on the technique and you're brushing it off as idiotic despite admitting to not being clear with your points. You're getting unnecessarily heated for a discussion of the technique's mechanics, especially since Dal is offering suggestions to your technique. Also Dal: making a point of Sei's misuse of "fuel" in the relation of oxygen's purpose was unnecessary. We moved on from that. ::We see ninja spit fire when using the Fire Release: if they are not turning chakra into your standard fire, what is combusting? Their saliva? Considering that the Uchiha can create fireballs the size of people, I'm pretty sure it's the result of transforming chakra into fire, which is what Dal is saying (granted, fire-like substance is a poor choice of words since fire is 100% energy). He never said that Fire Release is lighting chakra on fire; you're jumping the gun on that one. This area is fantasy, so we shouldn't be getting too into the science of it outside of what is necessary to define the creation of a jutsu. ::On the topic of water being an ineffective means of stopping your technique: I beg to differ. Like medicine, all it takes is to defeat the symptoms for it to be viable. Water can be used as a barrier because it can absorb the heat thanks to its specific heat capacity. Of course, the water wouldn't put out your fire, but the intended victim wouldn't be the one absorbing the heat. ::Also, I'm presuming this technique is inert in regards to , since Obito's inability to negate it implies that natural chakra is fundamentally different than regular chakra in composition? --[[User:LaviBookman|'れび']] (talk to Lavi!) 06:02, September 1, 2014 (UTC)